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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Courier New";mso-fareast-language:EN-US">The name servers for .se seem to return two NSEC record, one of which covers the wildcard (*), if the response is an NXDOMAIN response, but not if it is a NODATA response
for an empty non-terminal label.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Courier New";mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="SV" style="font-family:"Courier New";mso-fareast-language:EN-US">dig +dnssec 000000000.se +mult @x.ns.se<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="SV" style="font-family:"Courier New";mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="SV" style="font-family:"Courier New";mso-fareast-language:EN-US">(...)<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Courier New";mso-fareast-language:EN-US">;; ->>HEADER<<- opcode: QUERY, status: NXDOMAIN, id: 46328<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="SV" style="font-family:"Courier New";mso-fareast-language:EN-US">(...)<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="SV" style="font-family:"Courier New";mso-fareast-language:EN-US">000000.se. 7200 IN NSEC 00046.se. NS RRSIG NSEC<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="SV" style="font-family:"Courier New";mso-fareast-language:EN-US">se. 7200 IN NSEC 0.se. NS SOA TXT RRSIG NSEC DNSKEY<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="SV" style="font-family:"Courier New";mso-fareast-language:EN-US">(...)<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="SV" style="font-family:"Courier New";mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Courier New";mso-fareast-language:EN-US">dig +dnssec a.se +mult @x.ns.se<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Courier New";mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Courier New";mso-fareast-language:EN-US">(...)<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Courier New";mso-fareast-language:EN-US">;; ->>HEADER<<- opcode: QUERY, status: NOERROR, id: 103<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Courier New";mso-fareast-language:EN-US">(...)<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Courier New";mso-fareast-language:EN-US">_nicname._tcp.se. 7200 IN NSEC acem.a.se. SRV RRSIG NSEC<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Courier New";mso-fareast-language:EN-US">(...)<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Courier New";mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Courier New";mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Courier New";mso-fareast-language:EN-US">Is this really correct?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Courier New";mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Courier New";mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Courier New";mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Courier New";mso-fareast-language:EN-US">Mats<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Courier New";mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="SV">-- <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="SV" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New";color:black">---</span><span lang="SV" style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="SV" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New";color:black">Mats Dufberg</span><span lang="SV" style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="SV" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New";color:black">mats.dufberg@internetstiftelsen.se</span><span lang="SV" style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New";color:black">Technical Expert</span><span style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New";color:black">Internetstiftelsen (The Swedish Internet Foundation)</span><span style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="SV" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New";color:black">Mobile: +46 73 065 3899</span><span style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="SV" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New";color:black">https://internetstiftelsen.se/</span><span style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"> </span><span style="font-family:"Courier New";mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Courier New";mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black">From: </span></b><span style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black">Ulrich Wisser <ulrich@wisser.se><br>
<b>Date: </b>Monday, 17 January 2022 at 15:01<br>
<b>To: </b>Mark Andrews <marka@isc.org><br>
<b>Cc: </b>Shreyas Zare <shreyas@technitium.com>, Greg Choules via dns-operations <dns-operations@dns-oarc.net><br>
<b>Subject: </b>Re: [dns-operations] DNSSec validation issue for .se (missing denial of existence for *.se)<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal">This is of course very interesting for us (at .se).<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">I tried this with all our dns servers and all give the same answer.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">But I tend to agree that a proof for the non existence of the wildcard should be there.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">I am thinking of a domain setup as:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">*.<a href="http://example.com">example.com</a>. TXT “wildcard”<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><a href="http://0.example.com">0.example.com</a>. TXT “zero”<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><a href="http://test.a.example.com">test.a.example.com</a>. TXT “test.a”<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">What answer should “dig +dnssec <a href="http://a.example.com">
a.example.com</a> txt” give?<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">I would say “wildcard”. And if that is the case, shouldn’t it then send an extra sec in case there is no wildcard record?<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">/Ulrich<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On 11 Jan 2022, at 21:34, Mark Andrews <<a href="mailto:marka@isc.org">marka@isc.org</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt">NSEC prove there are no names with records between the two names. Note the qualifier “with records”. Clarifying this was one of the early corrections to the DNSSEC specification. <o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">-- <o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Mark Andrews<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt">On 12 Jan 2022, at 03:31, Shreyas Zare <<a href="mailto:shreyas@technitium.com">shreyas@technitium.com</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
</blockquote>
</div>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Hi,<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">I was implementing DNSSEC just last month and came across this same issue and didn't find any specific documentation on it.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">However, I came to the conclusion that since the NSEC record that was returned has the next domain name "<a href="http://acem.a.se/">acem.a.se</a>" which is a sub domain for the qname "<a href="http://a.se/">a.se</a>", its sufficient proof
that the "<a href="http://a.se/">a.se</a>" name is NODATA and so no wildcard proof is required here.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Regards,<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Shreyas Zare<br>
Technitium<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On Tue, Jan 11, 2022, 21:26 Hannes Mehnert <<a href="mailto:hannes@mehnert.org">hannes@mehnert.org</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote style="border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0cm">
<p class="MsoNormal">Hi DNS operators,<br>
<br>
since this is my first mail here, I first would like to thank you all <br>
for the constructive discussions and technical expertise. I'm developing <br>
a DNS suite in OCaml, a statically typed functional programming language <br>
[see <a href="https://github.com/mirage/ocaml-dns" target="_blank">https://github.com/mirage/ocaml-dns</a> //
<a href="https://mirageos.org/" target="_blank">https://mirageos.org</a> if <br>
interested], and have learned a lot from lurking on this list. My <br>
current work item is a recursive resolver.<br>
<br>
When I just implemented the denial of existence for DNSSec (with NSEC), <br>
I stumbled upon the TLD .se that uses NSEC. I mailed earlier to <br>
registry-default at nic dot se (the hostmaster in the SOA of .se), but <br>
didn't get a reply.<br>
<br>
Of course, I may be wrong with my analysis, if this is the case please <br>
help me to understand how this should work.<br>
<br>
I'm wondering how other validators (public resolvers) deal with the <br>
following issue, which is a missing denial of existence for *.se: So, a <br>
request for resource record type A, domain name <a href="http://a.se/" target="_blank">
a.se</a> results in the <br>
following:<br>
<br>
$ dig +dnssec <a href="http://a.se/" target="_blank">a.se</a><br>
<br>
se. 5363 IN SOA <a href="http://catcher-in-the-rye.nic.se/" target="_blank">
catcher-in-the-rye.nic.se</a>. <br>
<a href="http://registry-default.nic.se/" target="_blank">registry-default.nic.se</a>. 2022010921 1800 1800 864000 7200<br>
se. 5363 IN RRSIG SOA 8 1 172800 <br>
20220122054639 20220109191050 30015 se. [...]<br>
_nicname._<a href="http://tcp.se/" target="_blank">tcp.se</a>. 6694 IN NSEC
<a href="http://acem.a.se/" target="_blank">acem.a.se</a>. SRV RRSIG NSEC<br>
_nicname._<a href="http://tcp.se/" target="_blank">tcp.se</a>. 6694 IN RRSIG NSEC 8 3 7200
<br>
20220121191006 20220108001053 30015 se. [...]<br>
<br>
Which provides a non-existence proof for everything between <br>
_nicname._<a href="http://tcp.se/" target="_blank">tcp.se</a> and <a href="http://acem.a.se/" target="_blank">
acem.a.se</a>, but nothing for *.se (which according to <br>
the order of canonical domain names, is before _nicname._<a href="http://tcp.se/" target="_blank">tcp.se</a> -- even
<br>
before <a href="http://0.se/" target="_blank">0.se</a> that seems to be the first registered domain name).<br>
<br>
The NSEC record missing from the reply above is the following NSEC and <br>
RRSIG ($ dig +dnssec ns \!.se).<br>
<br>
se. 4353 IN NSEC <a href="http://0.se/" target="_blank">
0.se</a>. NS SOA TXT RRSIG <br>
NSEC DNSKEY<br>
se. 4353 IN RRSIG NSEC 8 1 7200 <br>
20220121132017 20220108061050 30015 se. <br>
jzWI5l5Sxyb2sOLzCWNX06nwmCtZuFdS3PvmivnyOPVZ3cw+blBXNYwN <br>
cFCYFdMC7R31W0ABBuT587mAm7Ae5NJX2GnXGcNgaVcD9VhKWAjJHpqf <br>
+NJcLOF9771m/BKPC7dKTwt/zVdKJSwFjaYTr0streS9OMCnJXbiWaQc <br>
CMDmzko2WiWdBNDAbZ8H/OfKymYjgJz1hZynMdl5LyWcGgxlOksuLKSv <br>
4xg4Ey07r4ZCy5XTQwfHG74qWa+61BVjfP3KEEEB42B0rZX8lT15B9MS <br>
Cg9RmBObNC5FYjXGkbeik6iXrdOGzUUURHay+th9SJ4BGIFIV8fyyDTd oxOc5w==<br>
<br>
<br>
Thank you for reading,<br>
<br>
Hannes Mehnert<br>
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</blockquote>
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