<div dir="ltr"><div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:small">You said that maybe if I was nicer, the group would have accepted my points.<br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:small"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:small">I said that maybe if people like you thought about how you present your case you would realize that it is vastly more counter productive.</div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:small"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:small">I am not the one asking the favor here. The WG group is.</div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:small"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:small">The burden of nice is on the WG. It is for the WG to humbly and respectfully persuade the stakeholders to deploy. Not the other way round. You are the people asking various parties to make changes to their technical infrastructure that are likely to be costing them in the millions of dollars in some cases.</div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:small"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:small">The attitude of the WG has from the start been to regard every operational concern raised as being troublemaking and unhelpful. And that is itself a problem. </div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:small"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:small"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:small"> * * * BE THANKFUL I TELL YOU WHAT MY ISSUES ARE * * *</div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:small"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:small"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:small">We don't even know what the real showstopper issues are at Google or the other large public DNS. I can guess from my experience but I have no direct knowledge. They don't come here and say what they are.</div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:small"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:small">This attitude that the people raising issues are the problem rather than the people who refuse to listen has to change. Because until it changes, the WG is going to continue to produce work that is ignored.</div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:small"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:small">You can get as angry as you like. But if you refuse to address my issues, I will refuse to put any effort to deploying your spec.</div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:small"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:small"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:small">Very few of the senior people I interact with at Google or Microsoft or the like have direct authority over the business groups that need to make a change. Some are in a position where they report to a person who can sign off on a project to just spend a couple of million on a project like this to improve security. But signing the check is the easy part for them. If there are technical issues raised, whether legitimate or not, the mandate is just going to stall and nothing will happen. </div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:small"><br></div></div><div class="gmail_extra"><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Tue, Mar 7, 2017 at 3:12 AM, Thomas Steen Rasmussen <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:thomas@gibfest.dk" target="_blank">thomas@gibfest.dk</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
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On 03/06/2017 05:47 PM, Phillip Hallam-Baker wrote:<br>
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<div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:small">Now you
might think that given that I work for a company that has
one of the public resolvers you would like to see change and
you are the person asking me for the favor, that maybe you
might want to take your own advice. </div>
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<div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:small">Like
Tweetler, you are very good at seeing how other people are
being nasty and mean to you but utterly incapable of seeing
what you are doing to them. Being gaslighted by Paul does
not make me at all inclined to accept his position.</div>
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I had to sleep on this because I was too angry after this to write a
level-headed response yesterday. Here goes:<br>
<br>
I have NO clue who you are, where you work, and I really do not
care. I also don't know who Tweetler is. Clearly I've stepped in the
middle of some unresolved issues for you here.<br>
<br>
You also seem to be under the delusion that because you (apparently)
run a large resolver that your opinion of DNS-over-TLS makes or
breaks this proposal - as in: if you don't implement it, no-one
will. You need to get off of whatever high horse you are on, the
thin air up there clearly isn't doing you any good.<br>
<br>
I also never asked you for any favours and I am highly unlikely to
do so in the future, since I am entirely done talking to you :)<span class="HOEnZb"><font color="#888888"><br>
<br>
<br>
/Thomas<br>
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